July 23, 2024
So you got called out. Now what?
Can confronting our own biases truly lead to a more inclusive society? Join us as we unpack the complexities of race, culture, and power dynamics within professional settings through Emily's eye-opening experience in a DEI book group focused on...
Can confronting our own biases truly lead to a more inclusive society? Join us as we unpack the complexities of race, culture, and power dynamics within professional settings through Emily's eye-opening experience in a DEI book group focused on climate justice. When a disruptive participant challenges the discussion, Emily steps up, sparking an insightful exchange that underlines the persistent blind spots white people often have regarding the struggles faced by marginalized communities. This episode emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing these blind spots and the emotional labor involved in confronting our limited perspectives.
The journey doesn't end there. We delve into the transformative power of friendship in challenging ingrained homophobic beliefs. Through a heartfelt personal story, we explore how a meaningful connection can serve as a catalyst for re-evaluating deeply-rooted prejudices against LGBTQ+ individuals. This internal struggle between ignorance and understanding highlights the significant role of openness in expanding our perspectives and aligning our actions with our values. Embracing discomfort is essential for personal growth and advocacy, and we share our experiences and insights to inspire you on your path towards becoming a more inclusive and compassionate individual.
0:00:03) - Unpacking Blind Spots and Empathy
DEI book group discusses race, culture, and power, highlighting blind spots and emotional impact in climate justice work.
(0:13:20) - Challenging Perspectives
Transformative journey of challenging ingrained homophobic beliefs, learning from others' experiences, aligning actions with integrity and discomfort in personal growth.
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Email: info@thehumanizepodcast.com
Transcript
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Courthney Russell Jr: Why do you hate people of color?
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Courthney Russell Jr: Why are women less than. Once you
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Courthney Russell Jr: learn that, you start to address those
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Courthney Russell Jr: issues in a better way than just,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you should do this. You should like
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Courthney Russell Jr: black people. Why should I like black
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Courthney Russell Jr: people? Welcome, fam. This is Courtney Russell
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Courthney Russell Jr: Junior, and I'm here with my co
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Courthney Russell Jr: host, Emily Brocker.
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Emily Braucher: Welcome to Human Eyes.
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Courthney Russell Jr: We are two Americans with totally different
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Courthney Russell Jr: backgrounds and life experiences.
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Emily Braucher: We're coming together on this podcast to
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Emily Braucher: dive right at the heart of the
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Emily Braucher: three things that shut down tough conversations
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Emily Braucher: about culture, power, and ego.
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Courthney Russell Jr: The stories you are about to hear
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Courthney Russell Jr: are meant to humanize those deeply involved
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Courthney Russell Jr: in social justice. Welcome to the work,
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Courthney Russell Jr: y'all. Let's get it, yo. What's going
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Courthney Russell Jr: on, family? It's another mini episode of
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Courthney Russell Jr: the Humanized podcast, another exciting week in
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Courthney Russell Jr: culture, politics, humanity, and all of the
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Courthney Russell Jr: above. And we're excited to really discuss
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Courthney Russell Jr: that in this mini episode. So let's
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Courthney Russell Jr: get to it. But before we do,
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Courthney Russell Jr: I wanna just do a disclaimer and
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Courthney Russell Jr: just talk about the relationship that Emily
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Courthney Russell Jr: and I have. And we've both given
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Courthney Russell Jr: each other permission to delve into these
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Courthney Russell Jr: kind of hot button topics per se
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Courthney Russell Jr: and the uncomfortableness of the nature of
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Courthney Russell Jr: the topics. But please don't just try
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Courthney Russell Jr: to do this kind of work with
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Courthney Russell Jr: individuals who you haven't gotten permission from
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Courthney Russell Jr: and or you don't have a relationship
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Courthney Russell Jr: with. So with that being said, let's
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Courthney Russell Jr: get to work. What's going on, Emily?
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Emily Braucher: What's going on? As in what's really
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Emily Braucher: going on? Because I haven't talked to
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Emily Braucher: Courtney about what we're going to talk
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Emily Braucher: about today. So we'll see. We'll see
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Emily Braucher: how this goes. You never know. So,
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Emily Braucher: yeah, something happened earlier this week, and
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Emily Braucher: it's kind of been sitting with me,
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Emily Braucher: you know, sitting on my chest. And
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Emily Braucher: it's both an opportunity, I think I
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Emily Braucher: have a lot of learning in this,
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Emily Braucher: and I'm wondering if a conversation with
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Emily Braucher: you might just, you know, explore this
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Emily Braucher: piece a little bit and be helpful
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Emily Braucher: for folks in the meantime.
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Emily Braucher: So the context is, I'm a part
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Emily Braucher: of this, like, professional group of DeI
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Emily Braucher: professionals who are in the climate space,
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Emily Braucher: like, doing work related to climate justice
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Emily Braucher: or, you know, climate change. And we
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Emily Braucher: did a book group on Monday, and
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Emily Braucher: we're reading Lily Zhang's group book, amazing
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Emily Braucher: book. It's called Dei deconstructed. And, yeah,
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Emily Braucher: you know, we get on the call
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Emily Braucher: and people are introducing themselves. It's a
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Emily Braucher: diverse group of people, and none of
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Emily Braucher: us know each other other.
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Emily Braucher: So that's, like, situation number one is
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Emily Braucher: I like literally know no one. And
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Emily Braucher: I'm definitely aware of, like, stepping into
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Emily Braucher: a Dei space as a white woman,
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Emily Braucher: which I have, you know, lots of
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Emily Braucher: questions around, and I'm constantly kind of
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Emily Braucher: grappling with and exploring my lane and
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Emily Braucher: my space within this work. I do
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Emily Braucher: feel like with an intercultural communication background,
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Emily Braucher: I have. I have something to offer,
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Emily Braucher: but I'm always curious about my space
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Emily Braucher: in this work. And so everyone on
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Emily Braucher: the call, there's no reason for them
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Emily Braucher: to give me the benefit of the
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Emily Braucher: doubt. Like, they don't know me from
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Emily Braucher: anywhere.
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Emily Braucher: And we're going around and having some
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Emily Braucher: conversations, and this person pops on the
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Emily Braucher: call a little bit late and starts
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Emily Braucher: asking questions that are, like, we had
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Emily Braucher: this kind of order that the group
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Emily Braucher: was going in, and he's disrupting the
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Emily Braucher: order and asking questions that are not
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Emily Braucher: related to the book. And it was
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Emily Braucher: just kind of, like, strange. The facilitator
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Emily Braucher: is trying to get things back on
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Emily Braucher: track, and he keeps asking questions. And
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Emily Braucher: at one point, he asks a question
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Emily Braucher: that, again, doesn't seem related to the
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Emily Braucher: book, but more around, like, Dei. And
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Emily Braucher: what are you going to do the
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Emily Braucher: next time you face conflict? And the
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Emily Braucher: book is about Dei strategy within businesses.
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Emily Braucher: And so I answer, and in the.
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Emily Braucher: I can't even remember, first of all,
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Emily Braucher: he calls him. He's like, Emily, you
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Emily Braucher: answer. And I was like, okay, I'm
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Emily Braucher: willing to do this because no one
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Emily Braucher: else is speaking up. Okay, I guess
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Emily Braucher: I'll just start talking.
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Emily Braucher: And, yeah, I mean, I get to
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Emily Braucher: a point where just talking about, like,
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Emily Braucher: my frustration with doing the work and
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Emily Braucher: getting people to really not just do
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Emily Braucher: performative work within businesses. And I say
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Emily Braucher: at the end of what I'm saying,
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Emily Braucher: like, and especially, especially at this moment
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Emily Braucher: in time when people are, like, angry
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Emily Braucher: and afraid and there's just this heightened
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Emily Braucher: thing happening in this culture, and people
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Emily Braucher: are, you know, it's just a really,
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Emily Braucher: I must have said something around, like,
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Emily Braucher: it's a really rough moment in time.
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Emily Braucher: And then the conversation goes to another
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Emily Braucher: woman, a woman of color, who, when
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Emily Braucher: she starts talking, she sounds a little
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Emily Braucher: bit frustrated, and she doesn't talk directly
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Emily Braucher: to me. But what she says is,
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Emily Braucher: one thing I have to point out
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Emily Braucher: to my white liberal women friends is
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Emily Braucher: that people are talking about how this
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Emily Braucher: moment of time is so hard. But
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Emily Braucher: for people of color and marginalized populations,
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Emily Braucher: it's been like this forever. And it's
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Emily Braucher: rough to hear you say, like, to
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Emily Braucher: hear them say, she wasn't being direct
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Emily Braucher: to me. To hear them say that
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Emily Braucher: this, it's gotten bad, basically, that notion
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Emily Braucher: of like, oh, my gosh, it's gotten
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Emily Braucher: bad when it's been bad forever.
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Emily Braucher: And so here's what I'm sitting with.
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Emily Braucher: I'm sitting with, like, she's totally right.
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Emily Braucher: Like, that's totally. It's. It's such. It's
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Emily Braucher: such a blind spot. And I think
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Emily Braucher: that that's the piece that I want
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Emily Braucher: to just, like, unpack with you today
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Emily Braucher: around, I don't know, living with our
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Emily Braucher: blind spots or, like, it's like a.
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Emily Braucher: You know, having that experience is like.
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Emily Braucher: It's like a kick in the chest
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Emily Braucher: of, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I'm
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Emily Braucher: just so ingested my own world with
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Emily Braucher: my own identity and my.
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Emily Braucher: My blind spots, and to have something
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Emily Braucher: so profound pointed out with really nothing
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Emily Braucher: for me, I didn't, like, say anything
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Emily Braucher: back. There wasn't. That was not how
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Emily Braucher: things were organized. I didn't get to
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Emily Braucher: dissect it anymore. I'm just. I'm curious
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Emily Braucher: about your perspective on, like, on any
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Emily Braucher: of that, but just on uncovering blind
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Emily Braucher: spots, huge blind spots like that. Living
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Emily Braucher: with multiple identities and empathy.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And I remember our last episode. You
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Courthney Russell Jr: talked about the EI in the workspace,
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Courthney Russell Jr: and how would it be profitable and
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Courthney Russell Jr: good for a business. And, again, a
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Courthney Russell Jr: culture of feedback and being willing to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be told when your blind spot is
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Courthney Russell Jr: glaring in any space, much less business,
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Courthney Russell Jr: is only going to enrich that space.
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Courthney Russell Jr: But a lot of times, individuals with
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Courthney Russell Jr: blind spots or biases say they want
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Courthney Russell Jr: a culture feedback but also get defensive
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Courthney Russell Jr: when feedback is given. Right. And so
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Courthney Russell Jr: you can't have it both ways, because.
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Courthney Russell Jr: So I am always one. I can
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Courthney Russell Jr: only give you a perspective for myself
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Courthney Russell Jr: because I'm always one that's willing to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be in the fire and be burned,
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Courthney Russell Jr: because I understand what happens with a
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Courthney Russell Jr: rebirth after a fire is done. It's
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Courthney Russell Jr: just like when you get burned up
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Courthney Russell Jr: and you. And not physically, but metaphorically,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you come out a new person. It's
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Courthney Russell Jr: like a rebirth. And so. But in
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Courthney Russell Jr: order to get to that place, you
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Courthney Russell Jr: have to go through perceived trauma. Not
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Courthney Russell Jr: literally. A lot of times, we.
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Emily Braucher: Right. Traumas and, like, upsetting. Disruptive.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Exactly.
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Emily Braucher: Yeah.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yeah. You have to be uncomfortable, because
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Courthney Russell Jr: if you're not uncomfortable, then it really
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Courthney Russell Jr: didn't matter to you. Like, we're talking
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Courthney Russell Jr: about issues that are very unsettling when
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Courthney Russell Jr: you come talking about slavery and you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: talking about women's suffrage and you're talking
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Courthney Russell Jr: about the LGBTQ struggle, and you talk
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Courthney Russell Jr: about trans rights and women's rights and
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Courthney Russell Jr: to reproductive rights. Those issues are things
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Courthney Russell Jr: that you have to grapple with and
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Courthney Russell Jr: at times are very unsettling. And if
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Courthney Russell Jr: you aren't, and if you come from
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Courthney Russell Jr: a world where you are on the
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Courthney Russell Jr: most conservative side, leaning or misogyny is
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Courthney Russell Jr: a way of life for you, or
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Courthney Russell Jr: just how you think is how you
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Courthney Russell Jr: think. And then your approach with someone
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Courthney Russell Jr: that challenges your perspective, of course, is
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Courthney Russell Jr: going to be uncomfortable. But if you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: sincerely willing to grow and you want
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Courthney Russell Jr: to be challenged in a way that's
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Courthney Russell Jr: going to make you a better person,
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Courthney Russell Jr: I think you have to be more.
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Courthney Russell Jr: You have to be very open to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be in for your blind spots, to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be shown to you. Because I have
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Courthney Russell Jr: many of this. I mean, I wasn't
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Courthney Russell Jr: always the corny that's talking to you
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Courthney Russell Jr: now. Like, there it was times when
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Courthney Russell Jr: I didn't talk to white people. I
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Courthney Russell Jr: didn't smile, I didn't joke. I didn't
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Courthney Russell Jr: believe in hope. I didn't believe in
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Courthney Russell Jr: love and people. I only believed in
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Courthney Russell Jr: myself. And the anger that I had
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Courthney Russell Jr: was one of survival. So the person
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Courthney Russell Jr: giving feedback has to understand the conditioned
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Courthney Russell Jr: tendencies of people who are doing things
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Courthney Russell Jr: that have to be challenged. And I.
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Courthney Russell Jr: So, like I said, if I live
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Courthney Russell Jr: in a world where I have to
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Courthney Russell Jr: hate gay people, that's a cultural thing.
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Courthney Russell Jr: It could be a cultural situation. Because
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Courthney Russell Jr: if I am gay, if I'm filing
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Courthney Russell Jr: homosexuality in my own mind, if I
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Courthney Russell Jr: am homosexual, but I'm in a culture
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Courthney Russell Jr: that doesn't accept that my family will
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Courthney Russell Jr: disown me, I have to be extra
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Courthney Russell Jr: masculine to survive, to have to keep
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Courthney Russell Jr: my family. And so a lot of
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Courthney Russell Jr: times when individuals do give feedback that
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Courthney Russell Jr: is right, it comes from a place
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Courthney Russell Jr: of, I know better than you, and
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Courthney Russell Jr: not taking into the consideration that, hey,
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Courthney Russell Jr: hold on. What I'm saying is my
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Courthney Russell Jr: perspective, and I hope that we can
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Courthney Russell Jr: come to understanding, but I'm not better
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Courthney Russell Jr: than you. It's just a different perspective.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Let's sit and talk. Let me learn
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Courthney Russell Jr: about why you hate black people. Why
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Courthney Russell Jr: do you hate people of color? Why
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Courthney Russell Jr: are women less than, you know? Once
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Courthney Russell Jr: you learn that, you start to address
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Courthney Russell Jr: those issues in a better way than
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Courthney Russell Jr: just, you should do this. You should
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Courthney Russell Jr: like black people. Why should I like
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Courthney Russell Jr: black people?
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Emily Braucher: We're going to get back to the
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Emily Braucher: episode in just a moment, but we
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Emily Braucher: wanted to give a quick shout out
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Emily Braucher: to our supporters on Patreon, as well
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Emily Braucher: as our supporters who have bought our
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Emily Braucher: merchandise from our website. Our podcast is
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Emily Braucher: principally sustained and propelled by listeners like
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Emily Braucher: you, and we wanted to make sure
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Emily Braucher: you knew how to get on that
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Emily Braucher: train. So to support us on Patreon,
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Emily Braucher: please go to the Patreon page and
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Emily Braucher: look up the Human Eyes podcast. There
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Emily Braucher: we have some exclusive content that we
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Emily Braucher: haven't released to the wider public, as
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Emily Braucher: well as ways to engage with the
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Emily Braucher: community. And if you want to check
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Emily Braucher: out some of the humanized merchandise, the
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Emily Braucher: t shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, and different things,
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Emily Braucher: go to our website, thehumanizedpodcast.com, and select
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Emily Braucher: shop at the top. And all of
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Emily Braucher: that support that we receive financially goes
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Emily Braucher: directly to our amazing editing team and
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Emily Braucher: making sure we're bringing you the highest
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Emily Braucher: quality content you can get. Thank you.
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Emily Braucher: And let's go back to the episode.
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Emily Braucher: I want to push you for a
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Emily Braucher: story here because I feel like you
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Emily Braucher: have a way higher tolerance for being
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Emily Braucher: in the fire than I do. And
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Emily Braucher: as I was unsettled after this call,
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Emily Braucher: there was a part of me that's
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Emily Braucher: like, this is it. This is the
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Emily Braucher: disruptive work. You're going to be okay.
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Emily Braucher: There's a desire to, what can I
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Emily Braucher: do to. There's a part of me
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Emily Braucher: that's like, well, I shouldn't do any
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Emily Braucher: dei work. There's a part of you
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Emily Braucher: that wants to like black and white
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Emily Braucher: thinking. I'm curious if you could talk
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Emily Braucher: through, like, a more specific example of
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Emily Braucher: when you started to develop a different
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Emily Braucher: mindset around blind spots or like a
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Emily Braucher: moment where a blind spot was pointed
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Emily Braucher: out to you and, like, the process
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Emily Braucher: of how that, because I'm imagining it's
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Emily Braucher: probably a slow process. Our minds work
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Emily Braucher: slowly of how you opened up to
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Emily Braucher: that and what kind of effect it
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Emily Braucher: had on you.
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Courthney Russell Jr: I mean, growing up in a culture
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Courthney Russell Jr: where homophobia is rampant, you have to,
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Courthney Russell Jr: in order to be considered a part
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Courthney Russell Jr: of the family, you have to have
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Courthney Russell Jr: a certain way of thinking. I've always
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Courthney Russell Jr: been a different type of thinker in
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Courthney Russell Jr: my family, but if I was a
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Courthney Russell Jr: gay black man, I think the strain
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Courthney Russell Jr: would even be heavier on my family,
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Courthney Russell Jr: right? And so I remember being in
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Courthney Russell Jr: school and having a friend who I
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Courthney Russell Jr: didn't know was gay. He was just,
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Courthney Russell Jr: and then this one comment that he
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Courthney Russell Jr: said just glossed over it, just like,
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Courthney Russell Jr: how we doing? Talking about, oh, man,
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Courthney Russell Jr: she's really beautiful. This and that. He
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Courthney Russell Jr: said, oh, the guy is really beautiful.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And, you know, when you hear something,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you like, say, what? What are you
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Courthney Russell Jr: talking about? Because I didn't know. And
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Courthney Russell Jr: I'm still battling. I'm still growing through
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Courthney Russell Jr: my stage of battling with loving people
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Courthney Russell Jr: for people instead of putting them in
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Courthney Russell Jr: a box of, you're straight, all right,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you're good, you're cool, you're gay, you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: weird, you're over there. And so I.
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Courthney Russell Jr: When he said it, I was like,
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Courthney Russell Jr: I love this dude. That's my guy.
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Courthney Russell Jr: We play ball together. But are you
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Courthney Russell Jr: gay? You know what I mean? So
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Courthney Russell Jr: now it's challenging what I think.
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Emily Braucher: You thought that or you said that?
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yeah, I thought that. I thought it
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Courthney Russell Jr: in my mind. And so I had
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Courthney Russell Jr: to go home. I'm sitting there. I
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Courthney Russell Jr: never forget. I'm sitting in the dark.
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Courthney Russell Jr: I'm like, what's going on? Did that
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Courthney Russell Jr: happen? How am I friends with this
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Courthney Russell Jr: dude the whole time and didn't know
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Courthney Russell Jr: he was gay? Questioning myself. And then
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Courthney Russell Jr: I made it about me, you know
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Courthney Russell Jr: what I mean? Like, you know, so
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Courthney Russell Jr: I went back next day, and he
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Courthney Russell Jr: said, I guess he thought that we
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Courthney Russell Jr: couldn't be friends anymore.
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Emily Braucher: Couldn't.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And so could not. And so he's
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Courthney Russell Jr: like, I guess that's it, huh? And
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Courthney Russell Jr: I'm like, in my mind, I'm saying,
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Courthney Russell Jr: damn, is that. That's kind of fucked
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Courthney Russell Jr: up for me to be in a
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Courthney Russell Jr: space where a friendship is predicated on
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Courthney Russell Jr: who this person loves and choose to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be intimate with. And so that was
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Courthney Russell Jr: the first entry point into me changing
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Courthney Russell Jr: a mindset of gay, wrong, gay, like,
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Courthney Russell Jr: can't be a part of my family,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you know? And so, like, that was
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Courthney Russell Jr: a blind spot. Whether he was trying
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Courthney Russell Jr: to do it or not, that was
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Courthney Russell Jr: blowed off the hinges. Like, I didn't
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Courthney Russell Jr: even know why it had such a
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Courthney Russell Jr: huge impact on me, I guess, because
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Courthney Russell Jr: that was my way of being, you
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Courthney Russell Jr: know, growing up and so dealing with
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Courthney Russell Jr: that. And it's been so many other
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Courthney Russell Jr: times that things have happened in my
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Courthney Russell Jr: life where it's like. Because things don't
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Courthney Russell Jr: happen to me regular, like, oh, pat
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Courthney Russell Jr: on the back. It's like, it happens.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Catastrophic ways to open my eyes.
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Emily Braucher: It's like, okay, you don't get the
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Emily Braucher: incremental, you get the slam and just
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Emily Braucher: slam, slam.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And it's like, either you understand now
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Courthney Russell Jr: or the next time, it's gonna be
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Courthney Russell Jr: a life and death situation. That's just
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Courthney Russell Jr: how my life is. So I had
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Courthney Russell Jr: to make a decision right there. Am
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Courthney Russell Jr: I gonna be ignorant? Am I going
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Courthney Russell Jr: to be a perpetuator of falsehoods regarding
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Courthney Russell Jr: love? Am I going to be a
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Courthney Russell Jr: hypocrite? And so I had to make
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Courthney Russell Jr: a decision to see, like, you know
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Courthney Russell Jr: what? I'm walking towards a road that
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Courthney Russell Jr: I don't know where it's going, but
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Courthney Russell Jr: I feel like activism is what's next
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Courthney Russell Jr: for me. And so if I'm going
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Courthney Russell Jr: to be true about that, let me
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Courthney Russell Jr: start to unpack that and then I
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Courthney Russell Jr: start to. For some reason, friends became
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Courthney Russell Jr: more like, hey, you know I'm gay,
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Courthney Russell Jr: right? Okay, I don't care. Can we
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Courthney Russell Jr: talk about the culture that this and
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Courthney Russell Jr: that? Because I'm a learner. And so
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Courthney Russell Jr: I wanted to know about all of
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Courthney Russell Jr: these things, and they just. Once you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: open to learning about something, about a
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Courthney Russell Jr: perspective of someone else has, I think
401
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Courthney Russell Jr: that knowledge gives you what you need
402
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Courthney Russell Jr: to change your perspective, or I to
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Courthney Russell Jr: make sense of a perspective.
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Emily Braucher: What I'm hearing you describing is kind
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Emily Braucher: of this choice moment of like, okay,
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Emily Braucher: you have this experience where you're. Your
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Emily Braucher: perspective is being blown open a bit.
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Emily Braucher: Your blind spot is being shown. And
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Emily Braucher: I think I. There's a second there
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Emily Braucher: that it's like, well, what are you
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Emily Braucher: going to do with this? Right? Like,
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Emily Braucher: you can become. You have an option
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Emily Braucher: to become defensive and go in that
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Emily Braucher: direction. And what I'm hearing you say
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Emily Braucher: is that you take that perspective and
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Emily Braucher: you compare it to who you know
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Emily Braucher: yourself to be and who you want
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Emily Braucher: to be.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yeah.
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Emily Braucher: And then you move from there. So,
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Emily Braucher: like, it's a step back of, like,
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Emily Braucher: you're not just riding on your brain's
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Emily Braucher: defense mechanisms, but you're saying, okay, well,
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Emily Braucher: let's align with my integrity and character
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Emily Braucher: and aspirations and go from there.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yes. Yeah.
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Emily Braucher: Love it. Love it. Thank you for
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Emily Braucher: sharing your perspective today.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Hey, hey. Don't let them get you
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Courthney Russell Jr: out of dei work. You could keep
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Courthney Russell Jr: on doing it and feeling uncomfortable. That's
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Courthney Russell Jr: what it's supposed to be.
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Emily Braucher: I know, but it's so uncomfortable. I
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Emily Braucher: know. You know, give people pep talks
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Emily Braucher: every day like it's gonna be uncomfortable.
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Emily Braucher: And then the moments that I go
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Emily Braucher: through it, which is often, is like,
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Emily Braucher: whew. Yeah, that's uncomfortable. Okay, well, thank
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Emily Braucher: you so much.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Appreciate you.
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Emily Braucher: Yeah. I hope everyone has a wonderful
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Emily Braucher: day.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Peace.
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Emily Braucher: Thanks for joining us on this episode
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Emily Braucher: of Human Eyes. Please remember to like
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Emily Braucher: and subscribe to our podcast so you
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Emily Braucher: don't miss an episode. Join us on
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Emily Braucher: Instagram or Facebook to continue this conversation
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Emily Braucher: at thehumanizepodcast.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Let us know if you want to
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Courthney Russell Jr: learn more about the professional trainings we
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Courthney Russell Jr: offer, and, of course, tune in next
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Courthney Russell Jr: time as we continue the work. Thank
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Courthney Russell Jr: you and much love.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Why do you hate people of color?
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Courthney Russell Jr: Why are women less than. Once you
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Courthney Russell Jr: learn that, you start to address those
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Courthney Russell Jr: issues in a better way than just,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you should do this. You should like
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Courthney Russell Jr: black people. Why should I like black
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Courthney Russell Jr: people? Welcome, fam. This is Courtney Russell
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Courthney Russell Jr: Junior, and I'm here with my co
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Courthney Russell Jr: host, Emily Brocker.
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Emily Braucher: Welcome to Human Eyes.
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Courthney Russell Jr: We are two Americans with totally different
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Courthney Russell Jr: backgrounds and life experiences.
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Emily Braucher: We're coming together on this podcast to
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Emily Braucher: dive right at the heart of the
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Emily Braucher: three things that shut down tough conversations
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Emily Braucher: about culture, power, and ego.
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Courthney Russell Jr: The stories you are about to hear
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Courthney Russell Jr: are meant to humanize those deeply involved
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Courthney Russell Jr: in social justice. Welcome to the work,
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Courthney Russell Jr: y'all. Let's get it, yo. What's going
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Courthney Russell Jr: on, family? It's another mini episode of
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Courthney Russell Jr: the Humanized podcast, another exciting week in
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Courthney Russell Jr: culture, politics, humanity, and all of the
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Courthney Russell Jr: above. And we're excited to really discuss
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Courthney Russell Jr: that in this mini episode. So let's
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Courthney Russell Jr: get to it. But before we do,
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Courthney Russell Jr: I wanna just do a disclaimer and
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Courthney Russell Jr: just talk about the relationship that Emily
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Courthney Russell Jr: and I have. And we've both given
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Courthney Russell Jr: each other permission to delve into these
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Courthney Russell Jr: kind of hot button topics per se
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Courthney Russell Jr: and the uncomfortableness of the nature of
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Courthney Russell Jr: the topics. But please don't just try
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Courthney Russell Jr: to do this kind of work with
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Courthney Russell Jr: individuals who you haven't gotten permission from
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Courthney Russell Jr: and or you don't have a relationship
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Courthney Russell Jr: with. So with that being said, let's
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Courthney Russell Jr: get to work. What's going on, Emily?
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Emily Braucher: What's going on? As in what's really
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Emily Braucher: going on? Because I haven't talked to
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Emily Braucher: Courtney about what we're going to talk
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Emily Braucher: about today. So we'll see. We'll see
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Emily Braucher: how this goes. You never know. So,
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Emily Braucher: yeah, something happened earlier this week, and
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Emily Braucher: it's kind of been sitting with me,
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Emily Braucher: you know, sitting on my chest. And
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Emily Braucher: it's both an opportunity, I think I
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Emily Braucher: have a lot of learning in this,
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Emily Braucher: and I'm wondering if a conversation with
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Emily Braucher: you might just, you know, explore this
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Emily Braucher: piece a little bit and be helpful
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Emily Braucher: for folks in the meantime.
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Emily Braucher: So the context is, I'm a part
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Emily Braucher: of this, like, professional group of DeI
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Emily Braucher: professionals who are in the climate space,
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Emily Braucher: like, doing work related to climate justice
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Emily Braucher: or, you know, climate change. And we
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Emily Braucher: did a book group on Monday, and
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Emily Braucher: we're reading Lily Zhang's group book, amazing
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Emily Braucher: book. It's called Dei deconstructed. And, yeah,
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Emily Braucher: you know, we get on the call
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Emily Braucher: and people are introducing themselves. It's a
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Emily Braucher: diverse group of people, and none of
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Emily Braucher: us know each other other.
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Emily Braucher: So that's, like, situation number one is
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Emily Braucher: I like literally know no one. And
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Emily Braucher: I'm definitely aware of, like, stepping into
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Emily Braucher: a Dei space as a white woman,
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Emily Braucher: which I have, you know, lots of
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Emily Braucher: questions around, and I'm constantly kind of
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Emily Braucher: grappling with and exploring my lane and
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Emily Braucher: my space within this work. I do
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Emily Braucher: feel like with an intercultural communication background,
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Emily Braucher: I have. I have something to offer,
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Emily Braucher: but I'm always curious about my space
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Emily Braucher: in this work. And so everyone on
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Emily Braucher: the call, there's no reason for them
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Emily Braucher: to give me the benefit of the
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Emily Braucher: doubt. Like, they don't know me from
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Emily Braucher: anywhere.
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Emily Braucher: And we're going around and having some
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Emily Braucher: conversations, and this person pops on the
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Emily Braucher: call a little bit late and starts
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Emily Braucher: asking questions that are, like, we had
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Emily Braucher: this kind of order that the group
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Emily Braucher: was going in, and he's disrupting the
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Emily Braucher: order and asking questions that are not
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Emily Braucher: related to the book. And it was
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Emily Braucher: just kind of, like, strange. The facilitator
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Emily Braucher: is trying to get things back on
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Emily Braucher: track, and he keeps asking questions. And
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Emily Braucher: at one point, he asks a question
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Emily Braucher: that, again, doesn't seem related to the
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Emily Braucher: book, but more around, like, Dei. And
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Emily Braucher: what are you going to do the
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Emily Braucher: next time you face conflict? And the
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Emily Braucher: book is about Dei strategy within businesses.
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Emily Braucher: And so I answer, and in the.
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Emily Braucher: I can't even remember, first of all,
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Emily Braucher: he calls him. He's like, Emily, you
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Emily Braucher: answer. And I was like, okay, I'm
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Emily Braucher: willing to do this because no one
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Emily Braucher: else is speaking up. Okay, I guess
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Emily Braucher: I'll just start talking.
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Emily Braucher: And, yeah, I mean, I get to
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Emily Braucher: a point where just talking about, like,
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Emily Braucher: my frustration with doing the work and
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Emily Braucher: getting people to really not just do
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Emily Braucher: performative work within businesses. And I say
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Emily Braucher: at the end of what I'm saying,
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Emily Braucher: like, and especially, especially at this moment
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Emily Braucher: in time when people are, like, angry
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Emily Braucher: and afraid and there's just this heightened
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Emily Braucher: thing happening in this culture, and people
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Emily Braucher: are, you know, it's just a really,
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Emily Braucher: I must have said something around, like,
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Emily Braucher: it's a really rough moment in time.
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Emily Braucher: And then the conversation goes to another
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Emily Braucher: woman, a woman of color, who, when
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Emily Braucher: she starts talking, she sounds a little
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Emily Braucher: bit frustrated, and she doesn't talk directly
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Emily Braucher: to me. But what she says is,
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Emily Braucher: one thing I have to point out
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Emily Braucher: to my white liberal women friends is
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Emily Braucher: that people are talking about how this
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Emily Braucher: moment of time is so hard. But
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Emily Braucher: for people of color and marginalized populations,
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Emily Braucher: it's been like this forever. And it's
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Emily Braucher: rough to hear you say, like, to
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Emily Braucher: hear them say, she wasn't being direct
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Emily Braucher: to me. To hear them say that
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Emily Braucher: this, it's gotten bad, basically, that notion
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Emily Braucher: of like, oh, my gosh, it's gotten
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Emily Braucher: bad when it's been bad forever.
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Emily Braucher: And so here's what I'm sitting with.
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Emily Braucher: I'm sitting with, like, she's totally right.
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Emily Braucher: Like, that's totally. It's. It's such. It's
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Emily Braucher: such a blind spot. And I think
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Emily Braucher: that that's the piece that I want
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Emily Braucher: to just, like, unpack with you today
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Emily Braucher: around, I don't know, living with our
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Emily Braucher: blind spots or, like, it's like a.
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Emily Braucher: You know, having that experience is like.
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Emily Braucher: It's like a kick in the chest
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Emily Braucher: of, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I'm
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Emily Braucher: just so ingested my own world with
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Emily Braucher: my own identity and my.
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Emily Braucher: My blind spots, and to have something
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Emily Braucher: so profound pointed out with really nothing
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Emily Braucher: for me, I didn't, like, say anything
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Emily Braucher: back. There wasn't. That was not how
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Emily Braucher: things were organized. I didn't get to
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Emily Braucher: dissect it anymore. I'm just. I'm curious
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Emily Braucher: about your perspective on, like, on any
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Emily Braucher: of that, but just on uncovering blind
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Emily Braucher: spots, huge blind spots like that. Living
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Emily Braucher: with multiple identities and empathy.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And I remember our last episode. You
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Courthney Russell Jr: talked about the EI in the workspace,
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Courthney Russell Jr: and how would it be profitable and
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Courthney Russell Jr: good for a business. And, again, a
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Courthney Russell Jr: culture of feedback and being willing to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be told when your blind spot is
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Courthney Russell Jr: glaring in any space, much less business,
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Courthney Russell Jr: is only going to enrich that space.
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Courthney Russell Jr: But a lot of times, individuals with
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Courthney Russell Jr: blind spots or biases say they want
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Courthney Russell Jr: a culture feedback but also get defensive
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Courthney Russell Jr: when feedback is given. Right. And so
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Courthney Russell Jr: you can't have it both ways, because.
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Courthney Russell Jr: So I am always one. I can
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Courthney Russell Jr: only give you a perspective for myself
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Courthney Russell Jr: because I'm always one that's willing to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be in the fire and be burned,
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Courthney Russell Jr: because I understand what happens with a
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Courthney Russell Jr: rebirth after a fire is done. It's
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Courthney Russell Jr: just like when you get burned up
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Courthney Russell Jr: and you. And not physically, but metaphorically,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you come out a new person. It's
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Courthney Russell Jr: like a rebirth. And so. But in
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Courthney Russell Jr: order to get to that place, you
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Courthney Russell Jr: have to go through perceived trauma. Not
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Courthney Russell Jr: literally. A lot of times, we.
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Emily Braucher: Right. Traumas and, like, upsetting. Disruptive.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Exactly.
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Emily Braucher: Yeah.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yeah. You have to be uncomfortable, because
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Courthney Russell Jr: if you're not uncomfortable, then it really
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Courthney Russell Jr: didn't matter to you. Like, we're talking
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Courthney Russell Jr: about issues that are very unsettling when
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Courthney Russell Jr: you come talking about slavery and you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: talking about women's suffrage and you're talking
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Courthney Russell Jr: about the LGBTQ struggle, and you talk
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Courthney Russell Jr: about trans rights and women's rights and
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Courthney Russell Jr: to reproductive rights. Those issues are things
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Courthney Russell Jr: that you have to grapple with and
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Courthney Russell Jr: at times are very unsettling. And if
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Courthney Russell Jr: you aren't, and if you come from
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Courthney Russell Jr: a world where you are on the
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Courthney Russell Jr: most conservative side, leaning or misogyny is
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Courthney Russell Jr: a way of life for you, or
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Courthney Russell Jr: just how you think is how you
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Courthney Russell Jr: think. And then your approach with someone
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Courthney Russell Jr: that challenges your perspective, of course, is
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Courthney Russell Jr: going to be uncomfortable. But if you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: sincerely willing to grow and you want
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Courthney Russell Jr: to be challenged in a way that's
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Courthney Russell Jr: going to make you a better person,
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Courthney Russell Jr: I think you have to be more.
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Courthney Russell Jr: You have to be very open to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be in for your blind spots, to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be shown to you. Because I have
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Courthney Russell Jr: many of this. I mean, I wasn't
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Courthney Russell Jr: always the corny that's talking to you
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Courthney Russell Jr: now. Like, there it was times when
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Courthney Russell Jr: I didn't talk to white people. I
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Courthney Russell Jr: didn't smile, I didn't joke. I didn't
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Courthney Russell Jr: believe in hope. I didn't believe in
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Courthney Russell Jr: love and people. I only believed in
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Courthney Russell Jr: myself. And the anger that I had
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Courthney Russell Jr: was one of survival. So the person
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Courthney Russell Jr: giving feedback has to understand the conditioned
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Courthney Russell Jr: tendencies of people who are doing things
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Courthney Russell Jr: that have to be challenged. And I.
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Courthney Russell Jr: So, like I said, if I live
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Courthney Russell Jr: in a world where I have to
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Courthney Russell Jr: hate gay people, that's a cultural thing.
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Courthney Russell Jr: It could be a cultural situation. Because
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Courthney Russell Jr: if I am gay, if I'm filing
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Courthney Russell Jr: homosexuality in my own mind, if I
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Courthney Russell Jr: am homosexual, but I'm in a culture
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Courthney Russell Jr: that doesn't accept that my family will
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Courthney Russell Jr: disown me, I have to be extra
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Courthney Russell Jr: masculine to survive, to have to keep
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Courthney Russell Jr: my family. And so a lot of
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Courthney Russell Jr: times when individuals do give feedback that
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Courthney Russell Jr: is right, it comes from a place
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Courthney Russell Jr: of, I know better than you, and
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Courthney Russell Jr: not taking into the consideration that, hey,
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Courthney Russell Jr: hold on. What I'm saying is my
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Courthney Russell Jr: perspective, and I hope that we can
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Courthney Russell Jr: come to understanding, but I'm not better
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Courthney Russell Jr: than you. It's just a different perspective.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Let's sit and talk. Let me learn
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Courthney Russell Jr: about why you hate black people. Why
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Courthney Russell Jr: do you hate people of color? Why
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Courthney Russell Jr: are women less than, you know? Once
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Courthney Russell Jr: you learn that, you start to address
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Courthney Russell Jr: those issues in a better way than
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Courthney Russell Jr: just, you should do this. You should
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Courthney Russell Jr: like black people. Why should I like
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Courthney Russell Jr: black people?
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Emily Braucher: We're going to get back to the
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Emily Braucher: episode in just a moment, but we
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Emily Braucher: wanted to give a quick shout out
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Emily Braucher: to our supporters on Patreon, as well
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Emily Braucher: as our supporters who have bought our
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Emily Braucher: merchandise from our website. Our podcast is
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Emily Braucher: principally sustained and propelled by listeners like
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Emily Braucher: you, and we wanted to make sure
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Emily Braucher: you knew how to get on that
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Emily Braucher: train. So to support us on Patreon,
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Emily Braucher: please go to the Patreon page and
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Emily Braucher: look up the Human Eyes podcast. There
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Emily Braucher: we have some exclusive content that we
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Emily Braucher: haven't released to the wider public, as
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Emily Braucher: well as ways to engage with the
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Emily Braucher: community. And if you want to check
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Emily Braucher: out some of the humanized merchandise, the
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Emily Braucher: t shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, and different things,
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Emily Braucher: go to our website, thehumanizedpodcast.com, and select
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Emily Braucher: shop at the top. And all of
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Emily Braucher: that support that we receive financially goes
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Emily Braucher: directly to our amazing editing team and
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Emily Braucher: making sure we're bringing you the highest
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Emily Braucher: quality content you can get. Thank you.
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Emily Braucher: And let's go back to the episode.
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Emily Braucher: I want to push you for a
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Emily Braucher: story here because I feel like you
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Emily Braucher: have a way higher tolerance for being
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Emily Braucher: in the fire than I do. And
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Emily Braucher: as I was unsettled after this call,
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Emily Braucher: there was a part of me that's
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Emily Braucher: like, this is it. This is the
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Emily Braucher: disruptive work. You're going to be okay.
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Emily Braucher: There's a desire to, what can I
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Emily Braucher: do to. There's a part of me
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Emily Braucher: that's like, well, I shouldn't do any
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Emily Braucher: dei work. There's a part of you
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Emily Braucher: that wants to like black and white
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Emily Braucher: thinking. I'm curious if you could talk
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Emily Braucher: through, like, a more specific example of
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Emily Braucher: when you started to develop a different
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Emily Braucher: mindset around blind spots or like a
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Emily Braucher: moment where a blind spot was pointed
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Emily Braucher: out to you and, like, the process
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Emily Braucher: of how that, because I'm imagining it's
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Emily Braucher: probably a slow process. Our minds work
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Emily Braucher: slowly of how you opened up to
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Emily Braucher: that and what kind of effect it
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Emily Braucher: had on you.
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Courthney Russell Jr: I mean, growing up in a culture
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Courthney Russell Jr: where homophobia is rampant, you have to,
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Courthney Russell Jr: in order to be considered a part
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Courthney Russell Jr: of the family, you have to have
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Courthney Russell Jr: a certain way of thinking. I've always
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Courthney Russell Jr: been a different type of thinker in
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Courthney Russell Jr: my family, but if I was a
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Courthney Russell Jr: gay black man, I think the strain
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Courthney Russell Jr: would even be heavier on my family,
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Courthney Russell Jr: right? And so I remember being in
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Courthney Russell Jr: school and having a friend who I
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Courthney Russell Jr: didn't know was gay. He was just,
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Courthney Russell Jr: and then this one comment that he
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Courthney Russell Jr: said just glossed over it, just like,
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Courthney Russell Jr: how we doing? Talking about, oh, man,
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Courthney Russell Jr: she's really beautiful. This and that. He
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Courthney Russell Jr: said, oh, the guy is really beautiful.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And, you know, when you hear something,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you like, say, what? What are you
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Courthney Russell Jr: talking about? Because I didn't know. And
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Courthney Russell Jr: I'm still battling. I'm still growing through
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Courthney Russell Jr: my stage of battling with loving people
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Courthney Russell Jr: for people instead of putting them in
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Courthney Russell Jr: a box of, you're straight, all right,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you're good, you're cool, you're gay, you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: weird, you're over there. And so I.
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Courthney Russell Jr: When he said it, I was like,
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Courthney Russell Jr: I love this dude. That's my guy.
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Courthney Russell Jr: We play ball together. But are you
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Courthney Russell Jr: gay? You know what I mean? So
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Courthney Russell Jr: now it's challenging what I think.
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Emily Braucher: You thought that or you said that?
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yeah, I thought that. I thought it
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Courthney Russell Jr: in my mind. And so I had
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Courthney Russell Jr: to go home. I'm sitting there. I
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Courthney Russell Jr: never forget. I'm sitting in the dark.
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Courthney Russell Jr: I'm like, what's going on? Did that
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Courthney Russell Jr: happen? How am I friends with this
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Courthney Russell Jr: dude the whole time and didn't know
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Courthney Russell Jr: he was gay? Questioning myself. And then
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Courthney Russell Jr: I made it about me, you know
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Courthney Russell Jr: what I mean? Like, you know, so
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Courthney Russell Jr: I went back next day, and he
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Courthney Russell Jr: said, I guess he thought that we
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Courthney Russell Jr: couldn't be friends anymore.
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Emily Braucher: Couldn't.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And so could not. And so he's
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Courthney Russell Jr: like, I guess that's it, huh? And
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Courthney Russell Jr: I'm like, in my mind, I'm saying,
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Courthney Russell Jr: damn, is that. That's kind of fucked
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Courthney Russell Jr: up for me to be in a
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Courthney Russell Jr: space where a friendship is predicated on
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Courthney Russell Jr: who this person loves and choose to
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Courthney Russell Jr: be intimate with. And so that was
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Courthney Russell Jr: the first entry point into me changing
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Courthney Russell Jr: a mindset of gay, wrong, gay, like,
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Courthney Russell Jr: can't be a part of my family,
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Courthney Russell Jr: you know? And so, like, that was
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Courthney Russell Jr: a blind spot. Whether he was trying
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Courthney Russell Jr: to do it or not, that was
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Courthney Russell Jr: blowed off the hinges. Like, I didn't
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Courthney Russell Jr: even know why it had such a
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Courthney Russell Jr: huge impact on me, I guess, because
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Courthney Russell Jr: that was my way of being, you
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Courthney Russell Jr: know, growing up and so dealing with
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Courthney Russell Jr: that. And it's been so many other
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Courthney Russell Jr: times that things have happened in my
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Courthney Russell Jr: life where it's like. Because things don't
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Courthney Russell Jr: happen to me regular, like, oh, pat
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Courthney Russell Jr: on the back. It's like, it happens.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Catastrophic ways to open my eyes.
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Emily Braucher: It's like, okay, you don't get the
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Emily Braucher: incremental, you get the slam and just
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Emily Braucher: slam, slam.
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Courthney Russell Jr: And it's like, either you understand now
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Courthney Russell Jr: or the next time, it's gonna be
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Courthney Russell Jr: a life and death situation. That's just
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Courthney Russell Jr: how my life is. So I had
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Courthney Russell Jr: to make a decision right there. Am
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Courthney Russell Jr: I gonna be ignorant? Am I going
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Courthney Russell Jr: to be a perpetuator of falsehoods regarding
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Courthney Russell Jr: love? Am I going to be a
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Courthney Russell Jr: hypocrite? And so I had to make
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Courthney Russell Jr: a decision to see, like, you know
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Courthney Russell Jr: what? I'm walking towards a road that
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Courthney Russell Jr: I don't know where it's going, but
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Courthney Russell Jr: I feel like activism is what's next
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Courthney Russell Jr: for me. And so if I'm going
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Courthney Russell Jr: to be true about that, let me
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Courthney Russell Jr: start to unpack that and then I
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Courthney Russell Jr: start to. For some reason, friends became
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Courthney Russell Jr: more like, hey, you know I'm gay,
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Courthney Russell Jr: right? Okay, I don't care. Can we
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Courthney Russell Jr: talk about the culture that this and
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Courthney Russell Jr: that? Because I'm a learner. And so
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Courthney Russell Jr: I wanted to know about all of
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Courthney Russell Jr: these things, and they just. Once you're
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Courthney Russell Jr: open to learning about something, about a
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Courthney Russell Jr: perspective of someone else has, I think
401
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Courthney Russell Jr: that knowledge gives you what you need
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Courthney Russell Jr: to change your perspective, or I to
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Courthney Russell Jr: make sense of a perspective.
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Emily Braucher: What I'm hearing you describing is kind
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Emily Braucher: of this choice moment of like, okay,
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Emily Braucher: you have this experience where you're. Your
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Emily Braucher: perspective is being blown open a bit.
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Emily Braucher: Your blind spot is being shown. And
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Emily Braucher: I think I. There's a second there
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Emily Braucher: that it's like, well, what are you
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Emily Braucher: going to do with this? Right? Like,
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Emily Braucher: you can become. You have an option
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Emily Braucher: to become defensive and go in that
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Emily Braucher: direction. And what I'm hearing you say
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Emily Braucher: is that you take that perspective and
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Emily Braucher: you compare it to who you know
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Emily Braucher: yourself to be and who you want
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Emily Braucher: to be.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yeah.
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Emily Braucher: And then you move from there. So,
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Emily Braucher: like, it's a step back of, like,
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Emily Braucher: you're not just riding on your brain's
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Emily Braucher: defense mechanisms, but you're saying, okay, well,
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Emily Braucher: let's align with my integrity and character
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Emily Braucher: and aspirations and go from there.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Yes. Yeah.
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Emily Braucher: Love it. Love it. Thank you for
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Emily Braucher: sharing your perspective today.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Hey, hey. Don't let them get you
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Courthney Russell Jr: out of dei work. You could keep
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Courthney Russell Jr: on doing it and feeling uncomfortable. That's
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Courthney Russell Jr: what it's supposed to be.
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Emily Braucher: I know, but it's so uncomfortable. I
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Emily Braucher: know. You know, give people pep talks
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Emily Braucher: every day like it's gonna be uncomfortable.
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Emily Braucher: And then the moments that I go
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Emily Braucher: through it, which is often, is like,
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Emily Braucher: whew. Yeah, that's uncomfortable. Okay, well, thank
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Emily Braucher: you so much.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Appreciate you.
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Emily Braucher: Yeah. I hope everyone has a wonderful
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Emily Braucher: day.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Peace.
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Emily Braucher: Thanks for joining us on this episode
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Emily Braucher: of Human Eyes. Please remember to like
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Emily Braucher: and subscribe to our podcast so you
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00:19:13,834 --> 00:19:15,824
Emily Braucher: don't miss an episode. Join us on
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Emily Braucher: Instagram or Facebook to continue this conversation
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Emily Braucher: at thehumanizepodcast.
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Courthney Russell Jr: Let us know if you want to
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Courthney Russell Jr: learn more about the professional trainings we
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Courthney Russell Jr: offer, and, of course, tune in next
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Courthney Russell Jr: time as we continue the work. Thank
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Courthney Russell Jr: you and much love.